The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast

420. What Moves You Will Move the World | Jocko Willink

Mon Feb 05 2024

LeadershipEthicsMentorshipForgivenessPodcasts

Description

Jocko Willink, an ex Navy Seal and author, discusses leadership, ethics, and invitational leadership. He emphasizes the importance of shared vision and goals in leadership. Mentorship is seen as a form of fatherhood and a better way to structure hierarchies. Jocko talks about his recent tour and how people connect with him due to his podcast. One of the main lessons he shares is that it's okay to feel sad or have regrets after traumatic experiences. Making mistakes is normal, and it's important to learn from them and move on. Dr. Peterson adds that forgiveness plays a role in forgiving oneself for mistakes made. To atone for mistakes, one should acknowledge them, provide a defense for oneself, but not excessively self-criticize. Suicide should never be considered as atonement; instead, one should focus on getting back on track.

Insights

Shared Vision and Goals

Jocko Willink emphasizes the importance of shared vision and goals in leadership.

Mentorship as Fatherhood

Mentorship is seen as a form of fatherhood and a better way to structure hierarchies.

Learning from Mistakes

Making mistakes is normal, and it's important to learn from them and move on.

Importance of Forgiveness

Dr. Peterson adds that forgiveness plays a role in forgiving oneself for mistakes made.

Building Relationships through Podcasts

Both the podcast host and the listener feel like they know each other due to shared experiences through listening to the podcast.

Effective Leadership in Live Events

Live events provide an opportunity for speakers to explain their intent, such as helping people, which may not be obvious to the audience.

Investing in Others

Taking care of your people leads to them taking care of you, creating mutual reinforcement.

Understanding Different Perspectives

Having a closed mind and refusing to consider other perspectives can lead to missed opportunities or misunderstandings.

Balancing Traits and Motivations

Extreme traits, whether traditionally feminine or masculine, can become negative. Balance is important.

Effective Decision-Making in Leadership

Leaders should be able to explain the rationale behind targets and be open to feedback and new information.

Chapters

Leadership and Ethics
Forgiveness and Atonement
Understanding Situational Factors
Live Events and Spontaneity
Authenticity and Motivations
Pleasure in Helping Others
Investing in Others
Motivations and Power
Effective Leadership
Trust and Decentralized Command
Building Relationships and Mentoring
Balancing Traits and Motivations
Virtue and Effective Leadership
Serving Others and Finding Meaning
Effective Leadership in Combat
Understanding Different Perspectives
Effective Leadership and Decision-Making
Leadership and Excessive Use of Force

Summary

Transcript

Leadership and Ethics

00:02 - 07:54

Jocko Willink, an ex Navy Seal and author, discusses leadership, ethics, and invitational leadership.
He emphasizes the importance of shared vision and goals in leadership.
Mentorship is seen as a form of fatherhood and a better way to structure hierarchies.
Jocko talks about his recent tour and how people connect with him due to his podcast.
One of the main lessons he shares is that it's okay to feel sad or have regrets after traumatic experiences.
Making mistakes is normal, and it's important to learn from them and move on.
Dr. Peterson adds that forgiveness plays a role in forgiving oneself for mistakes made.
To atone for mistakes, one should acknowledge them, provide a defense for oneself, but not excessively self-criticize.
Suicide should never be considered as atonement; instead, one should focus on getting back on track.

Forgiveness and Atonement

07:27 - 14:18

Forgiving oneself requires first examining whether one is excessively self-critical and then identifying any wrongdoing.
To atone, it is important to acknowledge mistakes, determine what could have been done differently, and commit to future change.
Healing a relationship through forgiveness involves the other person confessing, understanding why their actions were wrong, finding alternative behavior, and pledging not to repeat the mistake.
Holding onto anger and resentment for years can be detrimental to one's well-being.
Making decisions with the best available information at the time is crucial, even if later results show it was a bad decision.
Intent behind a decision should be considered when evaluating its outcome.
Taking ownership of one's decisions is essential for growth and learning from mistakes.
Blaming others instead of accepting responsibility leads to more problems.
Ruminating on past mistakes is unproductive; it's important to learn from them but not dwell on them.
Conscientious individuals may tend to be overly self-critical, but excessive self-blame is counterproductive. Improvement should be the goal.
Assessing ignorance and willful blindness can help determine if more information could have been obtained before making a decision.
When defending oneself, it is valuable to analyze the sequence of events leading to an unfortunate outcome and consider situational factors rather than solely attributing blame.

Understanding Situational Factors

13:51 - 20:49

The fundamental attribution error is a common mistake people make when they attribute someone's behavior to their personal traits rather than considering situational factors.
It is harder to analyze a situation than to make personal attributions, so people often default to personal attributions.
When mounting a defense for oneself, it is important to consider situational factors and make the strongest possible case for innocence.
Atonement and forgiveness are possible when one has learned from past mistakes.
Disciplining children is necessary when their behavior goes against universal human judgment, as it can affect how others perceive them.
Negative emotions related to past memories arise because of a hole in one's adaptive structure. Understanding why the negative experience occurred and reevaluating one's course can alleviate these emotions.
Both the podcast host and the listener feel like they know each other due to shared experiences through listening to the podcast.
The host engages with his audience informally after his shows, providing an opportunity for brief interactions with fans.

Live Events and Spontaneity

20:21 - 27:07

The podcast host enjoys going to live events and typically talks for two to two and a half hours, including Q&A sessions.
They use a technology called Slido, where audience members can enter a code on their phones to ask and upvote questions.
Slido helps organize the Q&A session and prevents issues with handling microphones or people grandstanding.
The host hasn't called out individuals from the audience yet but finds it interesting when someone steps up to the mic without knowing what they'll get.
Live lectures are compelling because they are spontaneous and without notes, allowing for new investigations of questions in real-time.
The host tries to bring the whole lecture to a conclusion that feels like a punchline, which is exciting for both live events and podcasts.
The host's batting average for landing where they wanted to in their talks is high, especially now that they are healthier again.
They compare their talk preparation process to making a set list for a rock concert, preferring spontaneity over excessive planning.
Having topics instead of detailed plans allows the host to pay attention to the audience's response and adjust accordingly during the talk.
Some topics may resonate more with the crowd depending on current events or political climate.

Authenticity and Motivations

26:44 - 33:39

The set list idea in concerts is similar to podcasts, where the audience wants a mix of new and familiar content.
Live podcasts allow the audience to participate in real time and see the nuances and authenticity of the speakers.
People want to ensure that motivational and psychological podcast hosts are credible, which can be assessed better in live situations.
Authenticity is valued, as seen in Joe Rogan's consistent presentation of himself compared to political figures who have different personas on and off stage.
Live events provide an opportunity for speakers to explain their intent, such as helping people, which may not be obvious to the audience.
Some people may assume that everyone wants relaxation, but for some individuals like Jordan Peterson, adventure and helping others are more important goals.
Adventure can justify pain and lack of satisfaction in life.
Skepticism exists regarding motivations for helping others, with some suggesting it could be a cover for dominance or power striving.

Pleasure in Helping Others

33:15 - 39:59

The speaker discusses the criticism that their claim to help people is just a cover for their own power and dominance.
They explain that they find helping others intrinsically rewarding, and this realization came from their career in the military.
The speaker mentions that seeing someone they mentored succeed was more gratifying than achieving success themselves.
They emphasize the importance of helping others along and making them capable rather than asserting superiority.
The speaker draws parallels between their experiences in the military and Jiu Jitsu, highlighting the value of training others to surpass them.
They mention receiving feedback on their leadership principles and teaching kids books, which brought a new level of fulfillment when children achieved milestones.
The speaker explores hedonism as an alternative motivational state but argues that it reduces everything to the moment and lacks consideration for others or the future.
They discuss power as another alternative motivation but highlight its limitations and potential negative consequences.
The speaker addresses skepticism about their pleasure in helping others by explaining human beings' bonding nature and longer dependency of offspring, suggesting that investment in others is a natural pattern.

Investing in Others

39:31 - 46:48

Human beings have different reproductive strategies, with some focused on quantity (producing many offspring) and others focused on quality (investing heavily in a few offspring).
Mentoring and helping others is an instinct tied to our biological preparedness to be fathers.
Sharing ideas and helping others develop their careers can lead to more ideas and positive outcomes for oneself.
Taking care of your people leads to them taking care of you, creating mutual reinforcement.
Long-term investment strategies require a shift in mindset from short-term gratification to long-term development.
The concept of laying up treasures in heaven refers to living in the light of eternity and viewing actions as extending infinitely throughout time.
Reputation is the safest place to store wealth, and being of service to others helps develop one's reputation.
Investing in others and sacrificing for them often leads to deep moments of reward when you see how much you've helped them.
Mentorship and motivation are important in the culture war, as it counters the belief that power is the only motivation.

Motivations and Power

46:25 - 53:16

The accusation from the left is that the motivation behind radical metamorphosis types is solely power, but this strategy is about distributing power and acting in the other person's best interest.
Leadership perspective: A good leader wants others to step up and take charge so they can focus on bigger things.
Intent has a smell, and it's important to be cautious of people whose intent seems off or questionable.
There are terrible people out there who will take advantage of you, but investing in others can lead to positive outcomes.
Psychopaths use power to their advantage, but they also sacrifice relationships and their own future for short-term gain. This strategy is not effective in the long run.
Most psychopaths end up in prison or face negative consequences for their actions.
Chimpanzee troops with leaders who rise to the top through force have unstable leadership and often meet a dreadful end.
Power is not the only true motivation; only about one in 20 people rely on power as their fundamental motivation.
Investing in others usually pays off, although it may take time to realize if someone is looking out for themselves more than anyone else.
The ability to pay attention (Horus) should be subordinated to all values. People can detect nonverbal behavior associated with short-term selfish gratification.
Psychopathic patterns of adaptation do not work socially and are detrimental even for those applying them. However, they can be better off than those paralyzed by depression or anxiety because they can navigate the world with self-serving attitudes.
Psychopathic men who mimic competence through false confidence have success fooling women, especially younger ones who may not have enough experience to distinguish between genuine confidence and false confidence.

Effective Leadership

59:01 - 1:05:39

Little moves that you make are often obvious to others and can end up destroying you.
Imposing your will on others may work temporarily, but it can lead to mutiny in the long run.
Human hierarchies based on power have limitations and demoralize participants.
Voluntary-based hierarchies with a shared vision are more effective than power-based ones.
To get people to listen to you, you need to listen to them first.
Respect, influence, and care are essential components of building relationships.
Listening is crucial for building relationships with employees, kids, and spouses.
In the military, giving orders is not always necessary; trust and understanding are key.

Trust and Decentralized Command

1:05:10 - 1:11:30

Trust is an important factor in leadership and organizations.
The US military's success can be attributed to devolving responsibility down the ranks and allowing decision-making power at different levels of authority.
Leaders should listen to people's problems and concerns to understand what direction they want to go in.
Comedians use audience feedback to refine their material and create successful comedy routines.
Decentralized command, where subordinate leaders are empowered to make decisions within certain parameters, is a superior leadership system.
Good relationships within a team lead to better performance compared to teams with animosity and lack of trust.
Fissures within a SEAL platoon can lead to failure in training, highlighting the importance of maintaining good relationships.

Building Relationships and Mentoring

1:11:07 - 1:18:00

Power dynamics can develop within a group of people playing games, such as in a platoon where the platoon chief and platoon commander have different levels of experience and authority.
Friction can arise when either the platoon commander or platoon chief wants to assert their dominance and make all the decisions, leading to conflicts.
False forms of prestige driven by narcissism can hinder effective leadership and teamwork.
Kids develop friendships through inviting each other to play and jointly negotiating rules, with play requiring voluntary participation and absence of compulsion or fear.
Friendships are built on a sequence of games played with tight constraints, including having goals, competition, cooperation, flexibility, and mutual enjoyment.
An ethical attitude that transcends specific games fosters strong relationships based on trust, respect, influence, care, and listening to each other's input.
Mentoring involves teaching others how to engage in long-term iterative games with an instinctual pleasure derived from successful reproductive strategies.
Building relationships requires giving trust and demonstrating care for the well-being of others.
Psychological reactance is an instinctual resistance to being told what to do, particularly prevalent among disagreeable individuals.

Balancing Traits and Motivations

1:17:40 - 1:24:09

Disagreeable people are less likely to cooperate when told to do something.
Agreeable people are more likely to cooperate when suggested or demanded.
Psychopaths and narcissists can take advantage of cooperative individuals in a group.
Beauty and the Beast represents the idea of falling for a trainable monster who can keep psychopaths in check.
Women have a difficult task of finding a man who is neither too weak nor too monstrous for cooperation and family life.
The core female pornographic narrative revolves around the beauty and the beast motif, where an attractive but dangerous male can be enticed into a relationship by the right woman.
Extreme traits, whether traditionally feminine or masculine, can become negative. Balance is important.
Personality trait distribution shows advantages and disadvantages for different traits, such as extroversion leading to impulsivity and mania.
Talents come with corresponding costs, even intelligence which can lead to intellectual arrogance.

Virtue and Effective Leadership

1:23:49 - 1:30:57

Being smart is great, but falling in love with your own intelligence can lead to trouble.
The classical conception of God as the sum of all that's good may be a misapprehension. It's more like the harmonious balance of all that is good.
Virtue itself is a harmonious balance of potentially competing virtues.
Virtue cannot be reduced to a single dimension; it encompasses multiple dimensions.
Pleasure in mentoring may indicate a balanced property of virtues.
A good leader must work in the best interests of the person they are mentoring and consider the best interests of all the people that person will serve.
Leadership requires adapting to individual differences, just like working with different types of wood as a carpenter.
Leadership is not something you're born with; it can be learned and improved over time.
Charismatic speaking is not the only way to be an effective leader; creating games and presenting them to people they want to play can also be effective leadership.

Serving Others and Finding Meaning

1:30:28 - 1:37:09

A lawyer who ran a law firm in Toronto was able to improve productivity by listening to his employees and addressing interpersonal conflicts before they escalated.
The manager of the law firm focused on making the firm function as well as possible, without seeking personal credit or recognition.
Working on behalf of the development of other people can be a deep source of meaning and direction in life.
Helping others, whether through volunteering at a soup kitchen or mentoring children, can provide a sense of purpose and direction.
Psychologists have identified five basic dimensions of human temperament: extroversion, positive emotion, neuroticism, agreeableness, and conscientiousness.
Self-consciousness is closely associated with negative emotion and thinking only about oneself can lead to misery and anxiety.
Instead of trying not to think about oneself, it is more effective to focus on what one can provide to others.
Serving one's own whims and prioritizing oneself leads to alienation, lack of meaning, anxiety, and self-consciousness.
Working for the benefit of others is ultimately the best thing one can do for oneself in the long run.

Effective Leadership in Combat

1:36:48 - 1:43:18

A good seal is someone who prioritizes the team over themselves.
Focusing on oneself can lead to problems such as egocentric arrogance or self-consciousness.
Self-consciousness about things like having a zit on your face is unnecessary because no one else cares.
Overcompensating for lack of experience or knowledge can be detrimental.
The authoritarian mindset can be problematic in combat situations where there are no rules and chaos reigns.
The best mindset in such situations is to keep an open mind and be adaptable.
Volunteerism and creativity become crucial when the rules have been suspended.
Keeping an open mind allows for quick adaptations and adjustments during combat situations.
Training should aim to open people's minds and expose them to different perspectives.
Genuine diversity of viewpoints is valuable in open-ended situations, as it provides more options and prevents uniformity of opinion.

Understanding Different Perspectives

1:42:55 - 1:49:10

In a conversation with soldiers, it was discovered that their boss skims money off their paychecks, which is considered normal in their culture.
The soldiers were not angry about it and believed that once they get promoted, they will be able to do the same.
When working with Iraqi soldiers, there were differences in how they operated and communicated. Instead of imposing our own methods, it was important to understand their perspective and find ways to merge cultures effectively.
Politeness norms played a role in communication. Asking "How many people can you bring?" yielded better results than demanding a specific number.
Having a closed mind and refusing to consider other perspectives can lead to missed opportunities or misunderstandings.
It's important to listen and ask questions even if we may not agree with the information or perspective being presented.
The current political divisiveness reflects a lack of willingness to have conversations and understand different perspectives.
In order to live harmoniously with others, it is necessary to listen and integrate diverse perspectives, even if they seem crazy or contrary to our own beliefs.
Implementing policies through manipulation or force is suboptimal. Voluntary buy-in and consent are preferable for effective leadership.
A leader should find out where people want to go and help them strategize on how to achieve their goals. Giving people ownership of their tasks is an effective leadership tool.
Decentralized organizations empower individuals by allowing them to figure out how best to accomplish objectives while encouraging collaboration for agreement on the overall plan.

Effective Leadership and Decision-Making

1:48:48 - 1:53:05

In a decentralized organization, leaders should provide targets and allow their team to figure out how to achieve them.
Good leaders seek input from their team on how to approach targets and negotiate agreements.
Leaders should be able to explain the rationale behind targets and be open to feedback and new information.
A leader's response should not be "because I said so," but rather an explanation of the reasons behind decisions.
Unnecessary rules should be avoided in leadership, with emphasis on enforcing a minimal set of rules.
Rules should have deep reasons behind them, not just arbitrary enforcement.
Understanding why tasks are assigned is crucial for effective execution.
Admitting when one is wrong and making adjustments based on new information is important in leadership.
Politicians often fail to admit mistakes or make adjustments based on new information.
The decision to use force during COVID was questionable and led to negative consequences.

Leadership and Excessive Use of Force

1:53:05 - 1:59:23

The podcast discusses the use of force and authority in leadership.
Moses is presented as an archetypal leader who leads people away from tyranny and slavery.
Despite being an effective leader, Moses relies on excessive force multiple times, which becomes his weakness.
Leaders should strive to lead with the minimum force required and avoid relying on authority or power.
It is important for leaders to communicate the direction and goals clearly so that their team can move forward without constant intervention.