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    Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend

    Billy Corgan And The Songs That Inspired Him

    Wed Jul 19 2023
    MusicCultureArtistryJoy DivisionAICreativity

    Description

    This episode features a conversation with Billy Corgan, where he discusses his early career, staying grounded despite success, and the sick culture of the music industry. The guest also talks about their career trajectory, new album, and the importance of making music based on personal values. They reflect on the influence of media and gatekeepers, audience reactions, memorable guitars, musical artifacts, and the passion for music and the creative process. The episode explores the emotional power of music, the legacy of Joy Division and New Order, performing iconic songs, and the impact of accidents. It also delves into the future of AI and its impact on creativity, as well as the speaker's latest project and wrestling.

    Insights

    The culture and systems in the music industry reward sociopathic behavior

    The speaker highlights how the culture and systems in the music industry reward sociopathic behavior and expect artists to sacrifice everything for success.

    The emotional power of music

    The episode explores the emotional power of music and how it can resonate with individuals on a deep level, allowing them to time travel emotionally through songs.

    The legacy of Joy Division

    Joy Division is considered one of the most important bands in the 20th century, known for their originality and DIY approach to music. Despite their short career, their music continues to inspire people even after 50 years.

    The impact of accidents in music

    Accidents and intentional choices in music can often create captivating moments that become iconic. 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' by Joy Division is an example of a song that became famous despite not being perfectly mixed or easily understandable.

    The future of AI in creativity

    The episode discusses the potential impact of AI on creativity, including concerns about AI taking over creative processes like songwriting and comedy, and the preference for genuine performances over parlor tricks with AI.

    Chapters

    1. Podcast episode featuring a conversation with Billy Corgan
    2. The guest's career trajectory and new album
    3. The culture and systems in the music industry
    4. The influence of media and gatekeepers
    5. Audience reactions and experiences
    6. Memorable guitars and musical experiences
    7. Musical artifacts and personal connections
    8. Passion for music and the creative process
    9. The artistry and impact of music
    10. The emotional power of music
    11. The legacy of Joy Division and New Order
    12. Performing iconic songs and the impact of accidents
    13. The future of AI and its impact on creativity
    14. The speaker's latest project and wrestling
    Summary
    Transcript

    Podcast episode featuring a conversation with Billy Corgan

    00:03 - 06:35

    • Unable to play songs in the podcast, but can be found on SXM app or in episode notes
    • Conan and Billy discuss their early careers in the '90s
    • Conan recalls feeling uncomfortable at a media event and Billy coming to his rescue
    • Billy's calming presence has helped other performers before their big moments
    • Both Conan and Billy reflect on staying grounded despite mainstream success

    The guest's career trajectory and new album

    06:09 - 12:13

    • The host compliments the guest on their career trajectory and how they have taken control of it.
    • The guest expresses gratitude for being allowed to talk on the show, as it is a rare opportunity for them.
    • They recall a funny moment from a previous appearance on the show involving leather gloves.
    • The conversation shifts to the guest's new album, which is praised for its orchestration and classical influences.
    • The guest shares a childhood story about almost pursuing music but being discouraged by their father.
    • They also mention an uncle who tried to convince them to play the accordion instead of guitar.
    • The host shares a story about their uncle suggesting they study law instead of hosting a late-night show.
    • The guest's prolific output of songs on their new album is discussed, contrasting with current trends in the music industry.
    • The guest explains that they make music based on what they think is right and don't care if people have a problem with it.

    The culture and systems in the music industry

    11:46 - 18:23

    • The culture is sick and counterintuitive to the human experience.
    • The speaker will do whatever they think is right for making music, regardless of others' opinions.
    • Some people try to talk musicians out of making music, which the speaker finds strange.
    • There are scarcity arguments in the music industry, but the speaker prioritizes leaving more songs for their kids.
    • During the early success of Smashing Pumpkins, there was a lot of negativity surrounding them.
    • People still try to assassinate the speaker's character because they are loyal to another band.
    • False stories were written about the speaker by people who knew them personally.
    • There is an either-or mentality in music fandoms that leads to animosity between bands and their fans.
    • Success can be disorienting if you're not secure in yourself or don't know your purpose.
    • The culture and systems in the music industry reward sociopathic behavior and expect artists to sacrifice everything for success.
    • The speaker feels happier now at age sixty because they have found a contented place where they can make what they like and speak directly to interested people.

    The influence of media and gatekeepers

    17:55 - 24:00

    • The 20th century brought mechanization and the idea of climbing up a magical escalator to make money and gain influence.
    • Joe Rogan's show is more influential than CNN, but they still believe they have the higher ground.
    • The gatekeeper class in the arts has eroded, with no one opinion having the power to shut someone down.
    • Clickbait culture has caused traditional media outlets to become snarkier and dumber.
    • People who are getting stuff done are still getting stuff done, regardless of others' opinions.
    • Billy Corgan reflects on how he would have handled the internet when Smashing Pumpkins first became popular.
    • He learned not to engage with fans online after they turned on him for trying to empower them through a feedback loop.

    Audience reactions and experiences

    23:39 - 29:42

    • A friend attended an Andy Kaufman show where the crowd kept getting smaller as they followed him around all night.
    • The partner of the speaker, who is younger, read negative comments about herself online.
    • The speaker's partner is stunningly beautiful, disproving the negative comments.
    • Someone commented that Courtney Love wasn't pretty, which bothered her.
    • The speaker and the host both have experienced situations where someone appeared uninterested but later revealed themselves to be a big fan.
    • The speaker went to Coachella with their daughter and saw bands without reacting demonstratively.
    • Some people believe audiences are better in the dark because they can be more expressive.
    • David Letterman liked to keep his studio cold because he believed it made the laughs better.
    • Aretha Franklin refused to perform in a cold studio on the speaker's show.

    Memorable guitars and musical experiences

    29:25 - 35:40

    • The guest talks about his father's guitar, a 1966 purple flying V with an Indian head silver dollar in the back.
    • The guest was not allowed to touch the guitar but only look at it.
    • He later got a Korean made Les Paul copy and painted it black before selling it to a drug dealer.
    • He then had a Fender Mustang but couldn't get the grunge sound he wanted.
    • Jimmy Chamberlain sold him a yellow Stratocaster for $270, which he needed for rent.
    • The yellow guitar got stolen and returned to him after 27 years.
    • The guest still has his first electric guitar, a '64 Gretsch Tennessee, hanging on the wall behind him.
    • George Harrison visited Saturday Night Live and the guest thought about showing him the same make and model guitar that George played on tour but decided not to be that guy.
    • There is a funny story about Jack Bates playing bass in The Smashing Pumpkins and finding George Harrison's stolen amp from '68.

    Musical artifacts and personal connections

    35:15 - 41:47

    • The speaker was fascinated by a guitar amp and pedal board owned by Buddy Holly and Judas Priest's KK Downing, respectively.
    • The speaker had the opportunity to play Buddy Holly's guitar amp but couldn't afford to buy it.
    • The speaker bought KK Downing's pedal board and amp at an auction.
    • Owning these items feels like closing a mystical loop for the speaker.
    • The speaker regrets missing out on buying Elvis Presley's library card at an auction.
    • The song 'Wish You Were Here' by Pink Floyd holds emotional significance for the speaker due to personal experiences with loss.
    • The song has also resonated with others in significant moments of their lives.
    • The speaker had the chance to learn how to play 'Wish You Were Here' from David Gilmour himself before performing it with Roger Waters and wounded veterans.

    Passion for music and the creative process

    41:20 - 47:48

    • The podcast guests discuss the surreal experience of being able to interact with iconic performers they admired as kids.
    • They reflect on how their childhood experiences shaped their passion for music and drove them to practice relentlessly.
    • The guests emphasize that their journey in music was not driven by a guaranteed future success, but rather a deep love and dedication to the craft.
    • They express gratitude for the opportunity to collaborate with the musicians who inspired them, viewing it as an embodiment of their dreams coming true.
    • The guests highlight the spiritual and magical nature of these experiences, contrasting it with the business side of the industry that often diminishes its significance.
    • They share anecdotes about encounters with people who try to undermine their value or reduce them to statistics, highlighting the importance of staying true to oneself and finding fulfillment outside of external validation.
    • The conversation shifts towards how knowledge and mastery of recording techniques can change one's perception of a song, specifically discussing Pink Floyd's approach to economy and patience in their music-making process.
    • They appreciate Floyd's ability to create guitar lines that are melodic and singable, without indulging in excessive solos.
    • The guests also mention Floyd's use of artificial tones and sounds in their recordings, noting both the blessings and curses of understanding how music is produced behind-the-scenes.

    The artistry and impact of music

    47:19 - 53:44

    • Knowing how comedy is made can be both a blessing and a curse
    • In comedy, there are certain techniques like callbacks that can be used effectively or cheaply
    • Cheap heat in wrestling refers to getting booed easily for an easy reaction
    • True art in comedy aims for genuine laughs rather than cheap ones
    • Sometimes it's better to prioritize the quality of work over immediate success
    • Giving the audience something unexpected and richer than what they anticipated is an artistic goal
    • Tom Petty performing deep cuts at an elite event showed his disregard for commercial expectations
    • Choosing to do what you want instead of what everyone expects can lead to criticism or fulfillment

    The emotional power of music

    53:28 - 59:49

    • The song 'Fade to Black' by Metallica resonated with the speaker during a difficult time in their life.
    • The song is considered timeless and has a lasting impact beyond the band itself.
    • The speaker has a unique ability to recall the emotional feeling of music, which influences their own work as a producer.
    • Neil Young also had a similar experience when listening to his own songs from the past.
    • This ability to time travel emotionally through music is seen as mystical and powerful.
    • Journalists often overlook this aspect of music experiences.

    The legacy of Joy Division and New Order

    59:26 - 1:06:16

    • Journalists rarely discuss the universal language of music
    • Joy Division's lead singer suffered from epilepsy and depression, leading to his tragic suicide at 24 years old
    • Joy Division is considered one of the most important bands in the 20th century, known for their originality and DIY approach to music
    • Their music captured a unique form of nihilism with an adultness and seriousness to it
    • Joy Division emerged from Manchester, a working-class city with a sense of doom and hopelessness
    • Despite their short career, Joy Division's music continues to inspire people even after 50 years
    • After Ian Curtis' death, Joy Division morphed into New Order, creating a completely different musical language using synthesizers
    • The podcast host had the opportunity to play guitar with New Order on tour and perform Joy Division songs live

    Performing iconic songs and the impact of accidents

    1:05:53 - 1:12:34

    • When playing with the band on stage, the experience is intense and immersive.
    • The musician felt goosebumps and a sense of disbelief while performing 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' with Joy Division.
    • There was some negotiation about the musician's role in the song, but eventually they settled on letting them do their thing.
    • The vocals in the song are intentionally mixed low, giving it a haunting quality.
    • Despite not being perfectly mixed or easily understandable, 'Love Will Tear Us Apart' became one of the most famous songs of the 20th century.
    • Accidents and intentional choices in music can often create captivating moments.
    • The musician expresses concern about AI taking over creative processes like songwriting and comedy.
    • People may be willing to sacrifice imperfectly made masterpieces for more perfect but less impactful creations.

    The future of AI and its impact on creativity

    1:12:07 - 1:18:19

    • The writer strike and the fear of what's coming up ahead
    • The decision to automate jobs has already been made
    • $20 minimum wage argument is irrelevant due to automation
    • People talking about worshiping AI as a religious thing
    • The speaker reminisces about the past and how AI will take over parenting
    • Story about using code words for Nintendo to limit playtime
    • Joking about using AI instead of parenting
    • Discussion about an AI version of Kurt Cobain singing a song
    • Preference for genuine performances over parlor tricks with AI
    • Appreciation for comedians like DICE who can make people laugh at a deep level
    • Anecdote about DICE borrowing someone else's act and not having time to mess around
    • The conversation comes to an end, positive feedback exchanged

    The speaker's latest project and wrestling

    1:17:57 - 1:21:37

    • The speaker is predominantly Irish and they hide their emotions.
    • The conversation with the host is meaningful and magical to the speaker.
    • The speaker's latest project is a rock opera called Autumn, which is part of a larger story.
    • The speaker will be going on tour with a wrestling component.
    • The speaker owns the oldest wrestling promotion, NWA.
    • There may be a separate podcast episode about wrestling in the future.
    • The speaker had a fun experience being a lucha door in Mexico City.
    • There are 33 episodes of the podcast, but it is no longer in contemporary time.
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