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    Dario Amodei, C.E.O. of Anthropic, on the Paradoxes of A.I. Safety and Netflix’s ‘Deep Fake Love’

    Fri Jul 21 2023
    AIAnthropicAI SafetyScaling AI ModelsConstitutional AIDeep Fake Technology

    Description

    This episode explores the culture of anxiety and caution surrounding AI at Anthropic, an AI company started by former OpenAI employees. The CEO, Dario Amade, has been concerned about AI safety for a long time and is building AI while also warning of potential catastrophic harm. The episode delves into topics such as connecting future possibilities to current practices in AI, scaling AI models, constitutional AI, safety concerns in the industry, and the impact of deep fake technology on society.

    Insights

    Anthropic's Culture of Anxiety

    Anthropic has a culture of existential worry about the potential dangers of AI, with concerns that their work could contribute to the extinction of humanity. This culture may come from both top-down influence and organic emergence within the company.

    Importance of Safety in AI

    There is a trade-off between safety and boredom in AI models. While it may be preferred for models to be cautious and hesitant to say anything controversial for safety reasons, there are concerns about potential vulnerabilities and jailbreaks.

    Building Safer AI Models

    Anthropic uses constitutional AI as a method to make their models safer and less likely to produce harmful output. Constitutional AI involves creating a set of principles for the model to follow and evaluating its adherence to them.

    Challenges in Understanding AI Models

    Understanding AI language models can be difficult due to scaling and data input. The models are not designed to be understandable by humans but rather to work efficiently.

    Impact of OpenAI's Decisions

    OpenAI's decision to release chat GPT allowed them to gain significant attention and become a global phenomenon in the AI industry. However, there are concerns about the potential risks and misuse of AI models if safety measures are not prioritized.

    Deep Fake Technology in Pop Culture

    Deep fake technology is seeping into pop culture, with examples such as a reality dating show that revolves around deep fakes. This raises concerns about people disbelieving their own eyes and the loss of trust in visual evidence.

    Chapters

    1. Interview with Dario Amade, CEO of Anthropic
    2. Anxiety and Caution at Anthropic
    3. Connecting Future Possibilities to Current Practices in AI
    4. Scaling AI Models and Constitutional AI
    5. RL from Human Feedback and Constitutional AI
    6. Balancing Safety and Innovation in AI
    7. Safety Concerns and OpenAI's Decisions
    8. OpenAI's Impact and Concerns
    9. Anthropic's Approach and Stress Relief
    10. Deep Fake Love Reality Dating Show
    11. Impact of Deep Fakes on Society
    Summary
    Transcript

    Interview with Dario Amade, CEO of Anthropic

    00:01 - 06:53

    • Casey Newton from Platformer interviews Dario Amade, CEO of Anthropic, an AI company
    • Anthropic was started by former OpenAI employees and is considered one of the top AI labs in America
    • The company has a culture of existential worry about the potential dangers of AI
    • They are concerned that their work could contribute to the extinction of humanity
    • Anthropic recently released the second version of their AI language model called Claude
    • They wanted to spread awareness about AI safety and be part of the conversation in the AI world

    Anxiety and Caution at Anthropic

    06:40 - 13:21

    • The anxiety and caution surrounding AI at Anthropic made the reporter initially anxious, but eventually found it reassuring.
    • The CEO of Anthropic, Dario Amade, has been concerned about AI safety for a long time.
    • He has worked at major AI companies like Baidu, Google, and OpenAI.
    • Anthropic is building AI while also warning of potential catastrophic harm.
    • Dario Amade became interested in AI safety after reading Ray Kurtzweil's book 'The Singularity Is Near'.
    • Concerns about AI were not mainstream when he was at Google, but he tried to connect them to current systems through his work.

    Connecting Future Possibilities to Current Practices in AI

    12:51 - 19:28

    • The podcast guest discusses the importance of connecting future possibilities to current practices in AI.
    • The guest mentions a paper they wrote called 'Concrete Problems in AI Safety' that focused on the unpredictability and control of neural nets.
    • The guest explains their decision to leave OpenAI and start their own organization, Anthropics, with a focus on safety and values.
    • They highlight the importance of mechanistic interpretability in understanding AI models' behavior.
    • The guest acknowledges the challenges of achieving interpretability but sees potential commercial and regulatory applications.
    • It is mentioned that Anthropics has been working on interpretability for two and a half years, with another one or two years expected before significant progress is made.
    • The difficulty in understanding AI language models is attributed to the nature of scaling and data input.

    Scaling AI Models and Constitutional AI

    19:08 - 26:04

    • AI scaling suggests that putting more data into it makes the models work.
    • The models are not designed to be understandable by humans, but rather to work efficiently.
    • Understanding AI models is like being archaeologists trying to decipher an alien civilization.
    • Anthropic decided to build their own AI model instead of just analyzing others' models.
    • Safety techniques require powerful models, such as constitutional AI.
    • Constitutional AI involves creating a set of principles for the model to follow and evaluating its adherence to them.
    • Scaling AI models has become possible in recent years, allowing for more complex tasks.
    • Describing AI systems using human-like language is natural but can be misleading.
    • Constitutional AI is a method used by Anthropic to make their models safer and less likely to produce harmful output.

    RL from Human Feedback and Constitutional AI

    25:34 - 32:26

    • RL from Human Feedback method involves hiring human contractors to rate model outputs based on given instructions
    • This method can be used to train models to be politically neutral or biased
    • Weaknesses of this method include opacity and difficulty in updating the model
    • Constitutional AI involves creating a document that the model must act in line with
    • Another copy of the model grades the first copy based on constitutional principles
    • The constitution includes principles borrowed from various sources and written by OpenAI
    • The goal is to have a model that respects basic concepts of human rights and avoids harmful actions
    • Constitutional AI has made Claude safer than Chat GPT, with stronger safety guardrails
    • Claude is cautious and hesitant to say anything controversial, which some may find boring but is preferred for safety reasons

    Balancing Safety and Innovation in AI

    32:00 - 39:21

    • In the ideal world, the goal is to have a chatbot that never hesitates to answer harmless questions and never answers questions that go against the constitution or cause harm.
    • The trade-off between safety and boredom is preferred, with safety being prioritized over danger.
    • While using these models, dangerous questions are not typically asked, but there is concern about potential vulnerabilities and jailbreaks.
    • The industry has matured to some extent, but new vulnerabilities are still being discovered regularly.
    • There is a culture of anxiety around AI at Anthropic, with people worrying about the potential harms their models could cause once released into the world.
    • The culture of anxiety may come from both top-down influence and organic emergence within the company.
    • Effective altruism has influenced Anthropic's culture and anxieties due to its ties with the AI safety community and early employee involvement in effective altruism.
    • The CEO of Anthropic is sympathetic to effective altruism ideas but does not consider himself part of the movement. He believes in focusing on solving problems rather than aligning with a particular movement.
    • There are positive benefits to AI technology that can make human beings more productive and solve problems for humanity.

    Safety Concerns and OpenAI's Decisions

    38:51 - 45:43

    • AI systems have the potential to solve many of the roadblocks in biology and increase the quality of life for the whole world.
    • There is a backlash to the safety culture in AI, with some advocating for putting AI out into the world without many guardrails.
    • While there are concerns about safety, open sourcing AI models like LAMA2 can lead to innovation and improvements.
    • However, there is a worry that as AI continues to scale exponentially, bad things could happen if safety measures are not prioritized.
    • Some proponents of effective accelerationism may have financial incentives tied to the success of AI companies.
    • Building technology in this accelerating frontier comes with both fear and responsibility.
    • OpenAI made decisions balancing upside to society versus downside, aiming for overall benefits while acknowledging costs.
    • The decision not to release Clod allowed open AI to release chat GPT and gain widespread usage across various fields.

    OpenAI's Impact and Concerns

    45:17 - 51:48

    • OpenAI's decision to release chat GPT allowed them to gain significant attention and become a global phenomenon in the AI industry.
    • Despite the potential risks, OpenAI would make the same decision again due to the benefits they saw and the preparatory work they had done.
    • There is a possibility that technological barriers or other factors could reset the current hype cycle of AI.
    • The misuse of AI models is a serious concern, and if the scaling trend continues without interruption, grave consequences are likely.
    • The government shows an understanding of the urgency surrounding AI technology and is moving fast to address it.
    • An analogy has been made between companies like Anthropic and Robert Oppenheimer during World War II, but it's important not to overstate their historical significance.
    • Anthropic has established a long-term benefit trust to help navigate the tension between commercial incentives and safety concerns.

    Anthropic's Approach and Stress Relief

    51:32 - 58:45

    • Anthropic is creating a trust of people without equity to appoint three out of five board members for neutrality and conflict checks.
    • Major decisions made by Anthropic are often second-guessed due to concerns about commercialism and impractical focus on safety.
    • Anthropic's positive influence on other organizations has led to them adopting similar approaches, which is a sign of progress.
    • The CEO finds stress relief through swimming, treating it as a form of meditation and distraction from worries.
    • Over time, the CEO has learned not to shoulder all the responsibility alone and to approach decisions with a less serious mindset.

    Deep Fake Love Reality Dating Show

    58:16 - 1:04:35

    • A TV show called Deep Fake Love features couples being shown deep fake videos of their partners cheating on them.
    • The deep fake technology used in the reality dating show is very convincing.
    • The cheating clips shown on the show are short and immediately followed by the partner's horrified reaction.
    • The show is reminiscent of other Netflix dating reality shows, but with a more nefarious plot device.
    • Contestants are initially unaware that deep fakes are involved, causing extreme psychological distress when they believe their partners have cheated on them.
    • There is a prize for the couple that makes the fewest mistakes in identifying real cheating versus deep fakes.
    • The show creates a prisoner's dilemma situation where contestants don't know if their partners are cheating or not.
    • Deep fakes were originally feared for political misinformation and revenge purposes, but now they are being used as a plot device on dating reality shows.

    Impact of Deep Fakes on Society

    1:04:16 - 1:11:43

    • Deepfakes are entering our culture in unexpected ways, such as becoming a plot device on dating reality shows.
    • The technology for deep fake video is not yet good enough to be mainstream, but it is seeping into pop culture.
    • A reality dating show that revolves around deep fakes can train people to disbelieve their own eyes and question everything they see.
    • As deep fake technology becomes more accessible, people need to be wary of trusting visual evidence presented to them.
    • There is a sense of loss in not being able to assume that pictures or videos are real anymore.
    • Deep fake technology could be used maliciously in real relationships or custody battles.
    • Society is still adapting and trying to determine what is real and what can be trusted visually.
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