Scribbler Logo

    You have 4 summaries left

    The GoodLion Podcast

    Responding To Tough Pushback Around Christian Sexual Ethics | Pieter Valk - Pt 2: "Is Gay Sin Worse Than Straight Sin?" and More Challenging Questions From Pastors.

    Mon May 08 2023
    ChristianitySexual EthicsLGBTQ+ChurchMinistry

    Description

    This episode explores the challenges faced by Peter Valc, a writer, speaker, and director of a consulting and training ministry for churches to help gay people thrive within the biblical sexual ethic. The conversation addresses pushback from pastors and leaders within the Christian church, debates about same-sex sin, terminology and language used in ministry to LGBT+ individuals, adapting methods for effective ministry, navigating shame and cultural differences, and creating a better future for same-sex attracted Christians. The episode provides valuable insights into addressing skepticism about Peter's ministry due to his sexuality.

    Insights

    Addressing Skepticism

    Peter Valc faces pushback from pastors and leaders within the Christian church regarding his ministry to help gay people thrive within the biblical sexual ethic.

    The Middle Ground

    There is a lack of clarity on the middle ground of the sexual ethic debate within Christianity. Support and resources for same-sex attracted individuals in churches are limited.

    Understanding Same-Sex Sin

    Debates exist about whether same-sex sin is worse than straight sexual sin. Same-sex attraction may be seen as more broken, but comparing actual sins shows that both fall short of God's best.

    Terminology and Language

    The use of terminology like "gay Christian" is debated, with considerations of baggage and clarity. Commonly understood terms like "gay" and "LGBT+" facilitate important conversations about sexual ethics and church inclusivity.

    Identity and Language

    The complexity of language around LGBTQ+ issues is discussed, including the distinction between phenomenological and ontological use of the term "gay." The tension and cultural baggage surrounding the word "gay" in the church are explored.

    Adapting Methods for Effective Ministry

    Adapting methods to reach specific groups without compromising theology is important. The balance between shame and understanding sexual sin is discussed, along with cultural differences in treating sexual identity differently than other sins.

    Navigating Shame and Cultural Differences

    Growing up with same-sex attraction can lead to shame, but watching media with same-sex attracted characters helps with self-empathy. Nuance and sensitivity are crucial when discussing these topics.

    Creating a Better Future

    The focus is on how the church can create a better future for same-sex attracted Christians committed to the Christian sex ethic. The guest believes that Jesus offers a full life to everyone, including those who are gay.

    Chapters

    1. Addressing Skepticism about Peter's Ministry
    2. The Middle Ground on Sexual Ethic
    3. Understanding Same-Sex Sin
    4. The Use of Terminology and Language
    5. Exploring Terminology and Identity
    6. Understanding Identity and Language
    7. Adapting Methods for Effective Ministry
    8. Navigating Shame and Cultural Differences
    9. Creating a Better Future for Same-Sex Attracted Christians
    Summary
    Transcript

    Addressing Skepticism about Peter's Ministry

    00:02 - 07:27

    • Peter Valc is a writer, speaker, and director of a consulting and training ministry for churches to help gay people thrive within the biblical sexual ethic.
    • In part two of the interview, Peter addresses pushback he has received from pastors and leaders within the Christian church.
    • Some questions raised include the lionization of the gay identity in the side-B sexuality movement and whether gay sexual sin is worse than straight sexual sin.
    • Another point of contention is why Peter uses the term "gay-Christian" and whether it is misleading or stumbling.
    • The conversation also touches on disagreements between Peter and the interviewer as an example of respectful dialogue among ministry leaders.
    • Overall, this episode provides valuable insights into addressing skepticism about Peter's ministry due to his sexuality.

    The Middle Ground on Sexual Ethic

    06:59 - 14:22

    • The average Christian is familiar with talking points on topics like revision of sexual ethic and ex-gay theology, but there is less clarity on the middle ground.
    • The podcast host values a humble orthodoxy and presents pushbacks from more conservative individuals.
    • One pushback questions why gay Christians are being celebrated as heroes for resisting temptation, while other sins are not celebrated in the same way.
    • The guest would prefer to be part of a church where experiencing same-sex attraction is treated as an ordinary temptation.
    • There is still a lack of resources and support for same-sex attracted people in many churches, which has led to interest in individuals like the guest who discuss these topics.
    • Once churches provide proper support and celebrate stories like the guest's excessively, then it may be time to step back from social media platforms.
    • The podcast host acknowledges that specific needs should be responded to in ministry, and appreciates the guest's perspective on reaching those struggling with same-sex attraction.
    • Non-affirming pastors aim to create churches where same-sex attracted Christians can thrive without affirming sinful actions. Both sides are encouraged to be open about their struggles and pursue repentance.
    • Some pastors celebrate gay Christians not because they are gay, but because they model dedication to vocational singleness, celibacy, and serving Jesus wholeheartedly.
    • There may be some churches that technically hold a historic sexual ethic but appear hesitant or embarrassed about it due to cultural pressures. They may platform certain individuals for credibility points.

    Understanding Same-Sex Sin

    13:57 - 21:32

    • Some churches may claim to hold a historic sexual ethic but are hesitant about fully embracing it, possibly to gain credibility in progressive contexts.
    • There is a debate about whether same-sex sin is worse than straight sexual sin because the Bible refers to it as an abomination.
    • The Levitical Laws include various things labeled as abominations, some of which are considered moral laws and others ritual purity laws.
    • Same-sex attraction may be seen as more broken or farther from God's intentions compared to opposite-sex attraction, but this does not mean that same-sex attracted individuals commit more sexual sin or are morally corrupt.
    • Exceptions exist where opposite-sex attracted individuals may have additional temptations that make their overall sexual orientation more broken than someone with same-sex attraction.
    • Comparing actual sins, such as two pairs of high schoolers engaging in sexual activity, God is not more displeased with one pair over the other. Both fall short of God's best for his people.
    • Trying to create a scale of God's displeasure based on different types of sexual sin can come across as self-righteousness rather than focusing on recognizing our own sexual brokenness.

    The Use of Terminology and Language

    21:02 - 28:26

    • The speaker believes that focusing on the scale of God's displeasure and labeling certain sins as abominations comes from a place of self-righteousness.
    • They prefer to approach theology holistically, considering the metanarrative of scripture rather than isolating specific verses.
    • The speaker acknowledges that practicing same-sex sexual sin is considered an abomination according to the Bible, but they argue that other sins like heterosexual adultery also meet the criteria for being an abomination based on Proverbs 6:16-19.
    • They emphasize the need for balance in taking all sins seriously, regardless of whether they are straight or gay-related.
    • The use of terminology like "gay Christian" is explained by the speaker. They believe that both "gay" and "same-sex attraction" carry baggage and may not be clear to every audience.
    • The word "gay" can be misunderstood as having negative connotations, while "same-sex attraction" is associated with harmful practices from the past.
    • There is no perfect term for ministry to LGBT+ individuals and it ultimately depends on the audience being addressed.
    • For young adults and teens who are LGBT+ or questioning their beliefs about God's love for LGBT+ people, using commonly understood terms like "gay," "LGBT+," or "queer" helps facilitate important conversations about sexual ethics and church inclusivity.
    • However, the speaker acknowledges that some people may have reservations about these terms due to their own experiences or understanding of language.

    Exploring Terminology and Identity

    27:57 - 34:14

    • The speaker acknowledges that some people may not understand the connection between the phrase "pray the gay away" and same-sex attraction.
    • They explain that they choose to use different terminology, such as "same-sex attraction," when speaking to an audience who may have hesitations or suspicions.
    • The other person in the conversation appreciates the speaker's balanced response and compares them to a missionary studying the culture they are trying to reach.
    • The complexity of language around LGBTQ+ issues is discussed, with an example of how using the term "plus" can be misunderstood.
    • The speaker explains their use of terminology, including using "gay" to identify with others who have had similar experiences and using "sexual minorities" as a more inclusive term.
    • They emphasize the importance of being specific about who they are referring to when using terminology like LGBT+.
    • The speaker clarifies that when they use the word "gay," it is not to identify with same-sex attractions or gay sex but rather to connect with others who have shared experiences and faith journeys.
    • They also clarify that they use the word "gay" phenomenologically, based on personal experience rather than ontologically.

    Understanding Identity and Language

    33:47 - 40:51

    • The speaker distinguishes between using the word "gay" phenomenologically (based on experience) and ontologically (innate design).
    • The speaker clarifies that using the term "gay" does not imply being fundamentally different or intended by God to be gay.
    • The conversation explores the tension and cultural baggage surrounding the word "gay" in the church.
    • A parallel is drawn between identifying as divorced and identifying as gay, highlighting the need for giving individuals the benefit of the doubt and assuming their repentance and commitment to following Jesus.
    • Virtue signaling is discussed as happening among cultural Christians, with different terms like "same-sex attracted" or "gay" being used as virtue signals.
    • The use of language depends on the audience, with a focus on accommodating them first and choosing language that is effective for evangelism.
    • The importance of enduring discomfort for effective evangelism is emphasized, especially when it comes to reaching LGBT+ people.
    • The comparison is made to Chuck Smith's approach in Calvary where he adapted to the hippie culture without compromising theology.

    Adapting Methods for Effective Ministry

    40:23 - 47:31

    • The podcast guest discusses the importance of adapting methods to reach specific groups of people without compromising theology.
    • The host appreciates the guest's heart for reaching a specific demographic and carrying the Christian sex ethic without compromise.
    • The host raises a question about a post on social media by the guest regarding shame and its balance with understanding sexual sin.
    • The guest suggests sharing one's story and healing past memories as ways to overcome shame.
    • The host expresses concern about a part of the post that suggests watching movies or listening to music where gay characters are portrayed as normal, but avoiding sexual or romantic content that may be unhelpful.
    • The tension arises from how this recommendation might be perceived by pastors who see it as normalizing adultery if applied to other sins.
    • The guest acknowledges the tension and explains that cultural differences have shaped how sexual identity is treated differently than other sins like divorce.
    • If given the choice, the guest would prefer growing up in an America where there was no cultural power associated with being same-sex attracted.

    Creating a Better Future for Same-Sex Attracted Christians

    53:32 - 56:22

    • The focus of the podcast is on how the church can create a better future for same-sex attracted Christians who are committed to the Christian sex ethic and following Jesus.
    • The host expresses interest in discussing with the guest what it looks like for the church to forge that future.
    • The guest encourages the audience to continue engaging in conversations about same-sex attractions and believes that God has good news and gifts for those who experience them.
    • The guest does not believe that being gay means having a less full life, but rather believes that Jesus offers a full life to everyone, including those who are gay.
    • Both the host and guest look forward to discussing how churches can help offer this fullness to people both within and outside of their congregations.
    1