One Sweet Dream: A Beatles Podcast

Birthday Special Pt 3: Book Club! A deep dive into Salewicz's book and portrait of McCartney. With Halle Ryan.

Mon Jul 03 2023

Paul McCartneyThe BeatlesJohn LennonPartnershipLegacy

Part Three: McCartney Birthday Special
Paul McCartney's Depth and Legacy
Paul McCartney's Charm and Unflappability
Emotional Volatility and Strong Bond
Enduring Friendship and Creative Progress
Paul's Personal Struggles and Relationships
Paul's Passion for Music and Stage Presence
Paul's Drive and Relentless Energy
Paul's Work Ethic and Personal Influences
Paul's Life Outside of the Beatles
Paul's Relationships and Lessons Learned
Paul's Relationship with Jane Asher and Creative Progress
Paul's Relationship with John Lennon
The Dynamic Partnership of John and Paul
Paul's Decency and Complex Personality
Paul's Kindness and Leadership
George Martin's Insight and Misunderstandings
The Lennon-McCartney Partnership
Equal Co-Leadership of John and Paul
The Core Partnership of John and Paul
The Leadership Dynamic Between John and Paul
Conclusion: The Lennon-McCartney Partnership

This episode is part three of the McCartney birthday special, featuring an interview with Chris Salavitch from three years ago. Part one contains the host's thoughts on Salavitch's framing of McCartney as an artist and reflections on the interview. Part two is a reprise of the interview with Chris Salavitch. Part three is a conversation between the host and Hallie Ryan, a researcher for One Sweet Dream. The first part of their conversation focuses on the contents and themes of Salavitch's book. The second part delves into McCartney's open and frank interview from 1986, providing insights into his thoughts at that time. The hosts discuss their perspectives as John girls and how understanding John helps in comprehending Paul's behavior. They highlight the importance of exploring Paul's life beyond his role in The Beatles and appreciate Salavitch's positive portrayal of him in his book. Hallie Ryan finds Paul to be a deeper character than he is often given credit for, while acknowledging his desire to preserve The Beatles' legacy with love.

Part Three: McCartney Birthday Special

00:00 - 08:48

This episode is part three of the McCartney birthday special, featuring an interview with Chris Salavitch from three years ago.
Part one contains the host's thoughts on Salavitch's framing of McCartney as an artist and reflections on the interview.
Part two is a reprise of the interview with Chris Salavitch.
Part three is a conversation between the host and Hallie Ryan, a researcher for One Sweet Dream.
The first part of their conversation focuses on the contents and themes of Salavitch's book.
The second part delves into McCartney's open and frank interview from 1986, providing insights into his thoughts at that time.
The hosts discuss their perspectives as John girls and how understanding John helps in comprehending Paul's behavior.
They highlight the importance of exploring Paul's life beyond his role in The Beatles and appreciate Salavitch's positive portrayal of him in his book.
Hallie Ryan finds Paul to be a deeper character than he is often given credit for, while acknowledging his desire to preserve The Beatles' legacy with love.

Paul McCartney's Depth and Legacy

08:21 - 15:28

Paul McCartney is a deeper character than he's given credit for.
Paul wants the Beatles legacy to be left with a feeling of love.
The interview with Salavitch revealed a different, deeper side of Paul.
The current Paul in interviews is simple and strategic, lacking complexity.
Paul's communication style doesn't reflect the depth of his thinking or his contributions.
There's an overlap between John and Paul in terms of their rebelliousness and soft sides.
Calling Paul the family guy undermines his creative depth and fire.
John loved the crazy, experimental side of Paul.
Both John and Paul played mind games with each other in their creative relationship.
Paul has the gift of being charming and persuasive while knowing what he's doing behind the scenes.
There's more to Paul than meets the eye, which makes him compelling as an icon.

Paul McCartney's Charm and Unflappability

14:59 - 22:11

Paul McCartney's charm and innocence are persuasive, but there is much more to him underneath the surface.
Paul has an incredible level of awareness and can do two things at the same time.
John Lennon admires Paul's intelligence and considers him a smart person.
John feels safe with Paul and appreciates his ability to give direction and control things.
Paul is unflappable and stays calm in various situations, which John loves.
John is drawn to Paul's calmness and toughness due to his chaotic childhood.
Paul's unflappability combined with his charm makes John feel safe with him.
John does what he wants without parental control, while Paul feels pressure to deliver as a star.
John opens up a different world for Paul and makes life bigger and fun.
Their belief in each other pushes the Beatles experience forward.
John helps Paul laugh at himself and not take things too seriously.
Three quarters of what John does is to make Paul laugh, creating an inside connection between them.
After losing his mother, meeting John was good for Paul as he was funny and irreverent.

Emotional Volatility and Strong Bond

21:46 - 27:49

John is a creative soulmate for Paul and helps ground him in their partnership.
Paul has a tendency to control and get obsessive, but John is the only person who can deal with that.
John does a lot more for Paul than we realize because Paul is actually extremely emotional.
There was a lot of emotional volatility between Paul, John, and Jane Asher.
Paul and John enjoy drama, both within their relationship and outside of it.
Paul's unflappability in public situations contrasts with his highly reactive nature in their relationship.
Yoko Ono is emotionally volatile but keeps herself together in interviews.
Yoko strategizes based on emotion but doesn't show it outwardly.
Paul enjoys being John's favorite guy, but eventually John gets frustrated with that dynamic.
Despite their control and jealousy issues, they resolve conflicts quickly and have a strong bond.

Enduring Friendship and Creative Progress

27:32 - 34:53

The Beatles' 12-year working relationship and friendship was a profound and enduring one.
They went through ups and downs but managed to last in the high-pressure situation they were in.
At the age of 67, the volatility between them seemed to decrease, leading to a plateau of goodness.
John's charm and social skills protected and allowed him to be emotional, benefiting their relationship.
John showed unflappability and courage as a front man externally, while behind the scenes it was always Lennon and McCartney.
Paul's ability to charm helped calm situations and keep unwanted people away.
McCartney's charm wasn't necessarily fake; he used it positively in public situations instead of yelling like John sometimes did.
Paul's kindness and awareness of others' feelings contributed to his use of charm as a kinder way of dealing with situations he didn't like.
Sometimes Paul would activate John's devilish side when dealing with people or situations he didn't like.
Paul being labeled as a people pleaser is connected to childhood traumas that shaped his behavior.
His upbringing taught him to prioritize other people's emotions over his own, resulting in being trained as a people pleaser.

Paul's Personal Struggles and Relationships

34:27 - 41:37

Paul needed a shoulder to cry on and support after his mother's passing
His personality changed and he became withdrawn for several months
Paul's financial insecurity may be linked to losing his mother
John needed someone to fight for him, while Paul needed empathy and security
Paul reflects his need for empathy in his songs
Both John and Paul just wanted to feel loved
The release of 'The Lyrics' provides insight into Paul's relationship with his mother
Early books painted Paul as heartless, but he was trying to maintain control

Paul's Passion for Music and Stage Presence

41:13 - 49:05

Early books painted Paul as heartless, but he was trying to keep control
Jim's words of wisdom carry throughout Paul's life
Paul is interested in the whole creative process, not just being a performer
Paul loses control and lets himself go on stage, which makes him look hot and sound amazing
Music is a big turn-on for Paul, it's like sex to him
When Paul is on stage, the pressures of the world go away and he feels confident
Paul exudes sexiness and confidence in '67-'69
Paul tries not to show anyone up because he wants John to feel confident and empowered

Paul's Drive and Relentless Energy

48:39 - 55:33

P. Pefidi emphasizes the importance of making John feel confident and empowered
John's performance on the roof was outstanding and he looked confident, sexy, and passionate
Both John and Paul wanted to tour after the rooftop concert
Paul has an insane need for progress and is constantly seeking new challenges
Paul's drive and belief in himself are relentless
Paul's curiosity and competitiveness contribute to his encyclopedic knowledge of music
Paul's energy is described as shark-like and predatory
Paul is the driving force of creative and artistic progress in the Beatles
John and Paul bring out the best in each other with their tremendous energy
In Hamburg, Paul spent extra time improving the band's music while others were partying

Paul's Work Ethic and Personal Influences

55:29 - 1:02:22

Paul McCartney's work ethic and obsession with improving his music is evident from his constant practice and dedication.
The death of Paul's mother had a profound impact on him, leading to the development of a shell around him and influencing his drive to make money and be successful.
Understanding Paul's childhood experiences helps to soften some of his potentially annoying traits, as they are likely rooted in fear.
Paul felt a strong sense of responsibility towards his father and younger brother, which influenced his behavior and relationship dynamics.
Linda provided the support and comfort that Paul needed, while Yoko fought for John's well-being.
Despite assumptions that Paul was solely focused on the Beatles, he had a rich life outside of the band with other friends and family members.
McCartney Living with the Assures, an eccentric family in London, showcased Paul's willingness to explore different experiences outside of music.
Tony Barrow described Paul as organized and scheduled, taking the lead in planning events and activities.

Paul's Life Outside of the Beatles

1:02:06 - 1:09:00

Paul McCartney was seen as more organized and scheduled compared to the other Beatles.
McCartney's current interviews have distorted the impression of his life with the Beatles.
The breakup of the Beatles was not solely McCartney's fault, but he has been concerned about his legacy.
McCartney is fighting against negative perceptions of being manipulative and inauthentic.
He wants it to be clear that he loved John Lennon and the Beatles.
McCartney simplifies his stories to appeal to a wider audience.
Jane Asher was an important person in McCartney's life, characterized by innocence and goodness.
Asher was different from groupies who pursued McCartney for status or money.
Their relationship was kept quiet because both preferred it that way.

Paul's Relationships and Lessons Learned

1:08:36 - 1:15:40

Paul and Jane had a quiet relationship that seemed to complement each other
There was no friction between them
Shane was a big deal in Paul's relationship with John
Paul enjoyed being with different crowds and had a duality to his personality
Jane Asher was a big deal in the story, refusing to take a back seat
Jane enabled Paul to be independent
The intensity of the Lennon-McCartney relationship caused issues with women
John expected Paul and Jane to get married, but they broke up unexpectedly
Losing Jane and John taught Paul lessons about relationships
John saw Jane as a rival for Paul's attention and tried to make it work for all of them
Paul still had Jane as someone important in his life, giving him independence and a group of friends outside of the Beatles

Paul's Relationship with Jane Asher and Creative Progress

1:15:11 - 1:22:20

Peter Asher didn't provide much interesting information in the podcast interview.
Paul McCartney was crazy about Jane Asher, while John Lennon liked her too.
Barry Miles believes that both Paul and John were driven by art and creativity.
The Beatles' album 'Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band' was popular and marked their progress as artists.
Jane Asher wasn't interested in being part of the Beatles' creative journey or taking drugs like LSD.
Paul McCartney wanted to explore the space between where music is going and where it is currently.
Paul McCartney may have done LSD more times than people realize, based on accounts from various individuals.
Jane Asher may have felt jealous of John and Paul's spiritual experiences with LSD.
'67 was a year when Paul and John spent time together without Jane around.
John Lennon felt left out of the close relationship between Paul McCartney and Jane Asher, which led to his connection with Yoko Ono.

Paul's Relationship with John Lennon

1:21:55 - 1:29:01

Paul should be treated and talked about differently and more objectively
John tells Pete Shotten that he feels alone in '68
John says Paul was the closest person to him, except for Yoko, in '71
Salavitch's portrayal of John and Paul's relationship is lovely
Salavitch understands John's softer, feminine side
John has a gentle and vulnerable side that Paul admires
McCartney biographers tend to like and respect Lennon
Some authors may be attracted to the Marlon Brando side of John that didn't need anyone but Yoko
John seemed happiest when he was with the Beatles as a family
Examining body language in photos and videos reveals their closeness
Lenin gave many interviews, not just the famous one with Playboy
Understanding Lennon's emotional health and mental health can help contextualize his words

The Dynamic Partnership of John and Paul

1:28:37 - 1:35:04

Paul acted as an anchor for John's in discipline and impatience.
John was a bit shy, while Paul seemed more confident and certain of his abilities.
The symbiosis between Paul and John was the core to their dynamism.
They had a healthy rivalry that pushed each other on.
George developed his own style and had an edge on the fans.
Paul was willing to communicate information to the press and had a more serious air.
John and Paul found each other funny and impressed each other greatly.
George and Ringo gave John and Paul space to be themselves, which contributed to the magic of their relationship.

Paul's Decency and Complex Personality

1:34:35 - 1:41:42

Paul McCartney was always respected and liked by his peers for his wit and charm.
He was a bright and cheeky lad, known for his humor and leadership qualities.
Paul's humor is often overlooked in recent years, but he is a skilled storyteller.
Despite being seen as the 'nice' one compared to John Lennon, Paul had a complex personality with both casualness and toughness.
He had the ability to deliver sardonic comments but chose not to cultivate it due to his decency.
Paul's decency prevented him from engaging in a more aggressive breakup with John during The Beatles' split.

Paul's Kindness and Leadership

1:41:15 - 1:48:25

Paul McCartney is often seen as a decent and kind person, which is reflected in his actions throughout his career.
Despite being an egomaniac like the rest of The Beatles, Paul's core nature is that of a good guy.
Paul struggled with being a decent person while also wanting to defend himself during conflicts with John Lennon.
Paul understood John's vulnerability and was never cruel or mean-spirited towards him, even when they had disagreements.
Yoko Ono and Allen Klein didn't fully understand Paul's relationship with John, leading to misunderstandings and conflicts.
George Martin witnessed the creative interactions between John and Paul for eight years and believed their competition was based on impressing each other rather than rivalry.

George Martin's Insight and Misunderstandings

1:47:58 - 1:55:25

George Martin had a good read on both Paul and John.
George Martin loves and admires John despite his unkindness during his angry phase.
George Martin was open to reconnecting with John even before he passed away.
Paul, Sin, George Martin, and maybe even May know the real John.
George Martin called out John's schizophrenic comment as out of character.
George Martin adores John and did his best work on his songs.
Paul is both nice and astute, contrary to oversimplifications about him.
Paul wrote heartbreaking and beautiful songs that reflect pain and melancholy.
Paul found someone in John who understood his suffering and loneliness.
Both Paul and John named their firstborn children after their mothers.
Paul had infinite patience for John because he understood what he was feeling inwardly.

The Lennon-McCartney Partnership

1:55:03 - 2:01:32

Famous pairs that do great things tend to be extremely similar yet have differences that create chemistry.
The Lennon-McCartney partnership doesn't make sense if you underestimate McCartney.
The story of the Beatles needed a Yoko because something was going on between John and Paul.
People should take a step back and realize that the drama doesn't matter.
John's behavior changed when he was with Paul because he cared about what Paul thought of him.
John started to emulate Paul's obsessive attitude towards music.
Paul was meaningful to John right from the start, and vice versa.
Paul has been misrepresented and misunderstood, while people bought into the negative narrative of Lennon Remembers.
The attitude towards the Beatles story being miserable is not accurate; there was competition but also collaboration and community.
The game for John and Paul was to keep each other engaged and impressed.

Equal Co-Leadership of John and Paul

2:01:09 - 2:08:32

Salavitch promotes two main messages in the book: Paul is a pure artist and they were co-leaders
Paul Thompson and Philip McIntyre also agree that it was a co-leadership
In any creative relationship, there is a dance of participation and commitment
The band is like a family, with McCartney and Lennon as the driving force
When Paul decided he wasn't into the dream with Klein anymore, it ended
Paul emphasizes that he and John were equal partners on their journey together
Paul's statement of being a fan is often misunderstood, but he means they were equals
Their partnership and relationship are legendary, but Paul sometimes lacks confidence in expressing it
Paul has been attacked for years, which influences his self-consciousness in interviews
Despite this, Paul wishes he could be more assertive about his perspective on John
Both Paul and John consistently emphasized their equality as partners in the Beatles

The Core Partnership of John and Paul

2:08:07 - 2:15:52

Paul and John are equal co-leaders of the Beatles.
George brings his own flavor to the band.
John taking leadership in 1970 doesn't mean he was the sole leader.
John and Paul started writing together from the beginning.
It is a disservice to McCartney to position John as the leader.
John trusted McCartney, which was rare for him.
John's defensiveness may have been eased by Paul's kindness and strength.
Their working relationship was mutually beneficial.
The idea of John as the dominant leader is not supported by Paul, George, or Ringo's descriptions of him.
Paul and John both fought for leadership in the early days of the band.
'Strawberry Fields Forever' is discussed in Paul Thompson's book.

The Leadership Dynamic Between John and Paul

2:15:25 - 2:24:27

John Lennon was a leader in the Beatles, but not the core leader
Paul Thompson's book celebrates John as a collaborator and someone open to critique and shaping his work
John didn't have to do everything and provided leadership in some ways
The idea of leadership between John and Paul is not of concern
There are many beautiful photos of Lennon and McCartney where they don't appear to be fighting over who's the boss
The framing of their relationship needs more examination apart from what actually happened during their divorce
Both John and Paul were leaders in different ways, with Paul being more masculine energy at this point
Paul pushed for progress while John kept them together as a family
John brought unconventional ideas while Paul pushed them onwards
Both artists couldn't be pinned down by labels, they were both magic

Conclusion: The Lennon-McCartney Partnership

2:01:09 - 2:08:32

Paul and John are equal co-leaders of the Beatles.
George brings his own flavor to the band.
John taking leadership in 1970 doesn't mean he was the sole leader.
John and Paul started writing together from the beginning.
It is a disservice to McCartney to position John as the leader.
John trusted McCartney, which was rare for him.
John's defensiveness may have been eased by Paul's kindness and strength.
Their working relationship was mutually beneficial.
The idea of John as the dominant leader is not supported by Paul, George, or Ringo's descriptions of him.
Paul and John both fought for leadership in the early days of the band.
'Strawberry Fields Forever' is discussed in Paul Thompson's book.