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    Sinica Podcast

    China after COVID: UPenn's Neysun Mahboubi reports on scholarly exchange in a tightening political space

    Thu Jul 13 2023
    ChinaUS-China relationsScholar exchangesPolitical spaceTrust in Chinese governmentVirtual modalitiesIn-person exchangesForeigners in ChinaUkraine war

    Description

    The episode covers a range of topics including the China Project's articles, the next China conference, scholar exchanges, political space in China, trust in the Chinese government, US-China relations, future cooperation, and recommendations. It explores the impact of the pandemic on virtual modalities and in-person exchanges, as well as the challenges faced by foreigners in China. The episode also delves into the dynamic nature of political space, the decline in trust among intellectuals, and the complexities of US-China relations. It concludes with recommendations for a movie and a Substack subscription.

    Insights

    Virtual modalities and in-person exchanges

    Virtual modalities have partially compensated for the loss of in-person exchange during the pandemic. Scholar exchanges between the US and China have utilized private meetings over Zoom and public recorded conversations through a YouTube show. In-person exchanges have resumed with a real US-China dialogue taking place in Beijing.

    Political space and trust in China

    The tightening of political space in China is concerning for those hoping for a more open society. Trust in the Chinese government has eroded, including within the legal industry. There is a decline in trust among intellectuals who analyze the Chinese legal system.

    US-China relations and scholar exchanges

    US-China relations are complex and nuanced, with concerns about both governments' actions. The Biden administration's efforts to thaw relations were well received by some Chinese colleagues. In-person exchange allows for meaningful conversations, critiques, and counters that have been missing in recent years.

    Scholar exchanges and future cooperation

    Scholars on both sides have an opportunity to restart exchanges due to relaxed COVID controls and the emphasis on people-to-people exchange. Concerns about visa issues, harassment, and security apparatus need to be addressed. Moderate scholars can create a virtuous cycle by focusing on common interests.

    US-China cooperation and recommendations

    The Ukraine war is a topic of conversation as Americans look at China. There may be an opening for US-China cooperation on this issue. The speaker plans to return to China for further conversations and conferences. Recommendations include a movie called "To Live" and subscribing to Jay's Substack called "The Status Quo."

    Chapters

    1. The China Project and China Access
    2. Next China Conference and Scholar Exchanges
    3. Foreigners in China and Political Space
    4. Political Space and Trust in China
    5. US-China Relations and Scholar Exchanges
    6. Scholar Exchanges and Future Cooperation
    7. US-China Cooperation and Recommendations
    8. Recommendations and Conclusion
    Summary
    Transcript

    The China Project and China Access

    00:00 - 07:16

    • The China Project has published articles on the Chinese government's war on drugs, the People's Bank of China's hidden foreign exchange reserves, and an interview with the founder of Taiwan's MeToo movement.
    • China Access offers a subscription to support their journalism and podcast.

    Next China Conference and Scholar Exchanges

    06:51 - 13:55

    • The annual next China conference in New York City will explore China's impact on global issues such as security, energy, technology, human rights, and the shift to a multi-polar world.
    • Virtual modalities can partially compensate for the loss of in-person exchange during the pandemic.
    • Private meetings were held over Zoom to maintain connectivity between scholars in the US and China.
    • Public recorded conversations about difficult topics between Chinese and American scholars were conducted through a YouTube show.
    • Six episodes of the YouTube show were successfully produced.
    • The collaboration with Chen Ding Ding lasted for two years before meeting in person in Beijing.
    • A real US-China dialogue took place in Beijing, marking one of the first in-person scholarly exchanges since the pandemic.
    • During the trip, visits to Peking University Law School and Shanghai University's Law School were made, along with lectures given at both institutions.
    • Discussions on US-China relations were integrated into conversations about Chinese law and administrative law.

    Foreigners in China and Political Space

    13:35 - 20:52

    • Foreigners in China faced difficulties without a Chinese bank account, but mobile payment options like Alipay and WeChat Pay have made it easier for them to manage everyday life.
    • There has been a noticeable decrease in the number of foreigners in China, including students, businesspeople, and tourists.
    • The tightening of political space in China is concerning for those hoping for a more open society.
    • Having conferences between Chinese and international participants may have a positive impact on the political space.
    • Issues that people are cautious about discussing include Xi Jinping's third term, the canonization of Xi Jinping thought, restructuring at the 20th party Congress, trade wars, and the economy.
    • The COVID-19 pandemic is also a politically sensitive topic due to concerns about wasted time and messy control measures.
    • Many people in Shanghai experienced trauma during the pandemic and suffer from PTSD.
    • In the administrative law community, there were commentaries criticizing the local government response to the pandemic as not aligning with legal frameworks established after SARS.
    • As China's pandemic response progressed, there was less space for critique.

    Political Space and Trust in China

    20:32 - 27:41

    • Even during the Shanghai lockdown, some members of the legal community publicly critiqued aspects of the government's response.
    • Political space in China is dynamic and varies depending on sensitivity and how points are crafted.
    • People who take calculated risks to voice their opinions still operate within an acceptable range of repercussions.
    • Trust in the Chinese government and its approaches has eroded, including within the legal industry.
    • Legal reforms, such as publishing cases online, have been rolled back in China.
    • Foreign scrutiny of Chinese court cases may have influenced the decision to take them offline.
    • There is a decline in trust among intellectuals who analyze the Chinese legal system.
    • The shift in public opinion towards China has affected perspectives and work among liberal intellectuals.
    • Blame for the downturn in US-China relations is seen as resting on both Chinese behavior and US culpability.

    US-China Relations and Scholar Exchanges

    27:18 - 34:31

    • US-China relations are complex and nuanced, and our discourse often fails to account for this.
    • Chinese intellectuals and liberal intelligentsia have concerns about both the US and Chinese governments' actions.
    • The Biden administration's efforts to thaw US-China relations were well received by some Chinese colleagues.
    • There was positive rhetoric and emphasis on people-to-people exchange in the readouts of Secretary Blinken's visit.
    • President Biden's offhand comment about Xi Jinping being a dictator caused some concerns.
    • Both sides contribute to problems in the relationship, but it is important to push back against one-sided narratives.
    • In-person exchange allows for meaningful conversations, critiques, and counters that have been missing in recent years.

    Scholar Exchanges and Future Cooperation

    34:11 - 41:38

    • Scholars on both the US and Chinese side have an opportunity to restart exchanges due to relaxed COVID controls and the emphasis on people-to-people exchange by top leadership in both countries.
    • Concerns about visa issues, harassment at the border, and experiences in the other country need to be addressed through conversations with both governments.
    • Both countries have a rising security apparatus that puts pressure on scholarly exchange, so efforts should be made to push back against it.
    • Moderate scholars can create a virtuous cycle by focusing on common interests rather than playing into hawkish narratives.
    • The cost of air travel is a major impediment to travel between the two countries, affecting exchange programs and budgets. Efforts are being made to increase routes and reduce costs.
    • Chinese airlines are more ready to resume flights, while some pushback comes from US airlines considering competitive disadvantage and demand.
    • The Ukraine war is a topic of conversation as Americans look at China these days.

    US-China Cooperation and Recommendations

    41:14 - 48:32

    • The Ukraine war is a topic of conversation among Americans as they look at China.
    • Liberal intellectuals have a negative sentiment towards Putin and Russia.
    • The suffering of the Ukrainian people is frequently discussed.
    • Ordinary people in China may have a more pro-Russia perspective, but those the speaker talked to had similar views to Americans.
    • Recent events, such as the aborted coup, may lead to a recalibration of Chinese policy towards Russia.
    • There may be an opening for US-China cooperation on this issue.
    • The speaker plans to return to China for further conversations and conferences.
    • The Shortsman College capstone program brings together smart students from the West, other parts of the world, and China.
    • The quality of presentations in the program was impressive.

    Recommendations and Conclusion

    48:10 - 50:47

    • A movie recommendation: "To Live" captures the complexity of the modern Chinese experience.
    • Another recommendation: subscribe to Jay's Substack called "The Status Quo."
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