The Social-Engineer Podcast
Ep. 145 - Baking a Human Behavior Cake with Jack Schafer
Mon May 10 2021
Social Engineer Podcast #145 - The Human Element Series
Host and Co-host
- Chris Hanyaghi is the founder of the podcast and CEO of Social Engineer LLC, social-engineer.org, and Innocent Lives Foundation.
- Maxie Reynolds is the technical team lead for social engineering and an attacker mindset expert with a diverse background.
Social Engineer LLC
- Social Engineer LLC is a premier organization focusing on the human element.
- They are launching new trainings and services like fishing as a service in 2021.
Innocent Lives Foundation
- Innocent Lives Foundation helps law enforcement uncover, track, and trap trial predators.
- They have completed over 327 cases in four years.
Guest: Dr. Jack Schafer
- Dr. Jack Schafer is a retired FBI special agent and currently an associate professor at Western Illinois University.
- He was assigned to the FBI's National Security Behavioral Analysis Program (BAP).
- Jack has authored several books, including "The Like Switch" and "The Truth Detector".
- He used to work for a Beltway Bandit company where he taught people how to elicit information using nonverbal language.
- Jack translated those skills into teaching people how to build rapport and make friends.
- Rapport building is important because it makes people want to do something for you because they like you, not because they have to.
Techniques for Building Rapport
- Building rapport can lead to people wanting to help you because they like you.
- It can result in escalated privileges and recommendations.
- Techniques for building rapport can be learned through trial and error and intentional training.
- Principles outlined in "The Like Switch" and "The Truth Detector" can be used for recruiting people for various purposes.
Recognizing Manipulative Techniques
- Con artists use techniques similar to normal friendship behaviors for evil purposes.
- Learning these techniques can help recognize when they are being used.
- "Name it and claim it" technique can be used to identify manipulative techniques.
- People tend to believe others until given a reason not to (truth bias).
- Law enforcement officers have a tendency towards deception bias, assuming someone is lying until proven otherwise.
- Human behavior is a core basic behavior shared across cultures.
- Culturally specific behaviors can be added on top of the core human behavior.
- Core human behaviors can be taught, but it's impossible to teach all cultural things.
- The FBI uses Brian's Loop to combat false statements and predetermine information release.
Brian's Loop Technique
- Brian's loop involves giving predetermined answers and redirecting the conversation back to the interrogator.
- It allows for building rapport and avoiding direct compliments that can make people defensive.
- Yes or no answers are unusual, and it's better to allow the person being questioned to flatter themselves.
Verbal and Nonverbal Cues
- Breaking the baseline of nonverbal cues can indicate deception, but it's not foolproof.
- Verbal cues are more reliable than nonverbal cues as they directly represent what someone is thinking.
Motivation and Compliance
- Consequences and rapport are important for motivation.
- Treating someone with respect and dignity leads to willing compliance.
- Getting a commitment from someone increases the likelihood of them following through on a task.
- Psychological Principle of Consistency states that making a commitment leads to consistency in behavior.
- Asking for a commitment from others increases the likelihood of receiving truthful responses.
- Reciprocity can predispose someone to help you by doing them a favor and expecting them to do the same for you.
- The lip purse is a nonverbal cue indicating negative opinion or resistance, which can be an opportunity to try and change someone's mind.